Atlantis Bolivia - page 5, Plato's sources, resumé, links and references

"New opinions often appear first as jokes and fancies, then as blasphemies and treason, then as questions open to discussion, and finally as established truths." - George Bernard Shaw

Resumé
Despite the vast amount of information and evidence presented in these pages that demonstrate that the geographical part of Plato's story of Atlantis was based upon a description of South America, it is remarkable the extent to which it has been completely ignored by archaeologists, historians, moviemakers and supposedly independent reviews like Wikipedia. In fact, the idea of Atlantis being in Bolivia seems to be so detested by those that control Wikipedia, that whilst managing to mention practically every other proposed Atlantis site on the planet, no matter how little evidence there was, they manage to consistently remove all reference to Bolivia. (June 2017).

Perhaps this is a factor which influences moviemakers, or more likely it is simply cheaper to fly a film crew to Crete, for example, than to Bolivia what with additional costs of jeeps etc for expeditions. Also the factor that movie directors probably prefer swanning around on yachts in the Mediterranean or doing diving rather than getting out of breath on the high Altiplano.

One thing is certain, that when filming, Crete, Malta, Sardinia or south of Spain as in a recent Nat Geographic "documentary", there is no need to bother with the story that Plato gave or the details that Plato gave, it is enough for the directors to simply say something like "Atlantis was in the West", then they can omit the relevant details like the level rectangular plain of Atlantis, or the unique metals that existed in Atlantis etc etc.

On the site in Bolivia itself, it is the only realistic proposed Atlantis site in the world which actually has concentric rings of land, but it is mostly covered in shattered stones, some look like they might have been cut or part of buildings, but hard to tell for sure.
An independent Bolivian archeologist commissioned by the people of Pampa Aullagas went down to do a "prospeccion" of the site, which consisted mostly of picking up pieces of broken pottery, and the ridiculous statement he made was that there was pre-Columbian pottery but "there was no evidence of a Greek or Roman city on the site".
Atlantis of course never was a Greek or Roman city - except in the cinema movies and shows how little understanding these people have of the subject. Besides, after being sunk by earthquakes and floods, you are unlikely to find pre-earthquake pottery laying around on the surface or even intact buildings.
There again we don't really know if there ever was a city there, or perhaps Plato got this site mixed up with another maybe a pre-Tiwanaku or one beneath lake Titicaca or Wiñaymarca as Bolivian legend says.

The Akakor expedition in the year 2,000 found a submerged temple under lake Titicaca which they said was 660 feet long, well 660 feet is one Sumerian "furlong" or "stade" and Plato did say that in Atlantis there was a temple one stade in length. They made further expeditions and their report of 2004 stated that they found "Building structures, containing walls, pavimentations, roads etc. have been found. Underwater ruins from 6,000 years ago and a gold idol of some 35 kilos. The statue is an amazing artefact, but for the AKAKOR staff the real treasure was another: finally we have proof, after years of research, that our theory was right and the structures and artefacts which have been uncovered will determine new knowledge of the dawn of civilization in the Andes."

We can now add further, that the expedition of Josh Gates, "Adventures Unknown" and which has been named "Atlantis of the Andes" found and filmed further stuctures under Lake Wiñaymarca, stones and walls which they declared to be "multiple buildings down here."
Thus the legend of the Eternal City submerged beneath lake Titicaca is true.

So there we have in Bolivia, not only legends which speak of a city punished by the gods and sunk beneath the waters of the lake, but modern archaeological expeditions which confirm the existence of ruins beneath the lake and dating also to a suitable timescale, 4,000 BC or even 8,000 BC according to some accounts suggesting the site was drowned at the end of the last ice age making them older than Caral in Peru previously thought to be the oldest city in the Americas. Plato spoke also of a sacred site which consisted of a mountain low on all sides surrounded by concentric rings of land and such a site exists at Pampa Aullagas, destroyed by earthquakes just like Plato said.

I think the important thing to consider is that Plato was not writing a true historical account of Atlantis, but he was writing about the ideal form of government and he explains how he has to demonstrate how his ideal Athens would be successful in time of war by defeating a hugely superior enemy, then he introduces the story of Atlantis.
So, just like any modern writer, he must have got his ideas or information from somewhere, and used parts of it along with some imagination to put together the total story of Atlantis.
People may say, well how could that vast army and navy sail from "Bolivia" to Europe. On the first hand, it didn't need to, because what Plato is actually describing as the war, is the war that began with the Greek invasion of Troy and ended with the defeat of the Persians at the Battle of Salamis in 480 BC, (even had the same number of ships that Plato gave) but Plato could not openly describe that because Athens at that time was a democracy, and Plato did not like democracy, so he pushed the date back 9,000 years into the past. But most Spanish historians of the 16th century knew that Plato was talking about America and that Plato's date was 9,000 months, not years. That is well documented but ignored by modern historians.

The important thing to recognise is that Plato's description is a description of America in general, and of Peru/Bolivia in particular, it is the only location in the world that has practically all of the geographic features Plato described, but one should not get bogged down to much with his description of the actual city itself since in that part I think his imagination comes into play also with his description of the military disposition of the allotments which is clearly inspired by Herodotus describing the Persian forces.

But I think that the people of ancient America were allies of the ancient Persians and so we do have an "Ethiopian" army coming to the aid of Troy and we did have the mysterious "Sea Peoples" with their feathered headdresses attacking Egypt etc, and in Egypt they found coca in the mummies, so perhaps the story of the "Legend of the Desaguadero" reached Egypt via the people trading in coca, as well as the other details describing the Altiplano. Also the ancient Assyrian "gods" are depicted wearing eagle masks similar to Aztecs and feathered headdresses. The chief Sumerian god, Oannes is said to have arrived by sea and is also depicted wearing a fish costume. These are customs of ancient Americans. There were also two famous circular cities with concentric battlements painted in different colours in ancient Persia, nothing remains of these today. Perhaps details of these cities, obtained through the descriptions of Herodotus, influenced Plato in his description of the city of Atlantis, or perhaps the Persian cities found inspiration for their design in the site with concentric rings at Pampa Aullagas.

So, to sum up, I think it wrong to take every single aspect as literally true word for word, but to look instead at the many actual features which can be proven to be true.

Thus:
An island in the Atlantic Ocean, opposite the Pillars of Hercules, yes.
As large as Libya and Asia together, yes.
In the centre of the whole island continent, a plain, yes.
The plain is perfectly level, of rectangular shape, yes.
It measures 3,000 x 2,000 stades, yes, using Assyrian stades of 200 cubits.
The plain is high above the sea and enclosed by mountains, yes.
There are local deposits of gold, silver, copper, tin and orichalcum, yes.
In the centre of the plain, 50 stades from the sea (lake) a mountain low on all sides, yes.
The mountain has concentric rings of land, yes.
The mountain has been destroyed by earthquakes and sunk beneath the sea (lake), yes.

Plato: "to make the hill whereon she dwelt impregnable he broke it off all round about; and he made circular belts of sea and land enclosing one another alternately, some greater, some smaller, two being of land and three of sea, which he carved as it were out of the midst of the island; and these belts were at even distances on all sides, so as to be impassable for man" (113D)

Up to here so good so far, that is, as far as the god of the sea (nature) opening up rings of land around the mountain. But since Plato obviously borrowed from the Histories of the Persian Wars against Athens when describing the military disposition of Atlantis, did he similarly endow this natural site with embellishments such as docks for triremes and racecourse for horses, polishing up the natural rings into perfectly concentric rings encased in bronze, tin and orichalcum similar to Persian cities of the time of Herodotus? Or did he mix up a description of a gold-encrusted city now beneath Titicaca with the description of the ringed mountain at Pampa Aullagas....

Above, a modern illustration of the city of Atlantis, reasonably faithful to the story and showing the concentric rings of land and sea
although Plato did say that Atlantis was a mountain which was low on all sides.... Atlantis was built "on a hill".

Abandoned suka kollus with concentric plots of land separated by dried up water channels in Peru near lake Titicaca
video by Jois Mantilla.

Abandoned suka kollus with concentric rings of land separated by water channels near Acora in Peru close to lake Titicaca
from a video by Rafa Mercado.

Abandoned suka kollus with concentric rings of land separated by water channels in Peru near lake Titicaca
from a video by Rafa Mercado.

Abandoned suka kollus with concentric rings of land separated by water channels in the region of Acora, Peru near lake Titicaca
from a video by Huerfano Pajarillo .

above left, rock drawing of Mastodon in Amazonia. Above right, rock drawing of horse, Amazonia.
These drawings are thought to date to around 11,000 BC to a time when Amazonia was not jungle but savanna inhabited by numerous human settlements.

After serving with the Royal Air Force, Jim Allen used his expertise in mapping and aerial intelligence to identify the location of the site of Atlantis from Plato's description. After publishing his initial findings in Atlantis: The Andes Solution in 1998, he followed this up with numerous expeditions in the field. His research was the subject of a Discovery Channel documentary and earned him an honorary doctorate from Oruro Technical University in Bolivia. He currently lives on a yacht in Barcelona.
Jim Allen e-mail address
webatlantis@hotmail.com

Homepage

Part 1: Historic Atlantis

Part 2: The Evidence

Part 3: The Legend

Part 4: Conclusion

    Index
   Book 1 - Atlantis: the Andes Solution     Book 2 - "The Atlantis Trail"     Book 3 - "Atlantis: Lost Kingdom of the Andes"
   Book 4 - "Atlantis and the Persian Empire    Book, "Tiwanaku - a city lost in time

   Resources - subpages:
   Atlantis text illustrated     Plain Comparison    Atlantis Bolivia versus Crete    Atlantis in the Andes, Discovery documentary
   images of Atlantis     lost city of Atlantis    lost continent of Atlantis    Atlas

   Plato     comparison of translations     Atlantis Jowett translation     Atlantis Rising origin of translations     what Plato said
   Histories who's who Greeks    Greeks in Mexico     Sarmiento de Gamboa     Sir Francis Bacon on Atlantis
   Sir Isaac Newton on Atlantis    Fuente Magna, cuneifrom dish     Bolivia and the Sumerian connection     pre-Columbian wheels
   the Tiwanaku calendar    Calendario perdido de Tiwanaku    The Sun Gate wall    Puerta del Sol muro    the Muisca calendar    Tiwanaku - a city lost in time
   Posnansky    Squier    Cieza de Leon    Thaipykkhala - the ceramica negra of Tiwanaku     Atlantis Universe

   artefacts, Atlantis and the route to the sea     headgear of the Sea Peoples    Atlantis army and navy
   atlantis origins in Bolivian legends     twins of Atlantis     Orichalcum    Wealth of Atlantis     Bulls or llamas sacrifice

    Louisiana canals gallery    Tabasco, Mexico canals gallery     rio Paraguay levees canals     rio Parana canals, ponds and islands
    rio Parana delta canals    Corrientes     rio Amazon to Manaus    rio Amazon west from Manaus    rio Orinocco to Amazon canal
    Beni, Moxos gallery    Pantanal    atlantis canals on the Altiplano     canals gallery    Chipaya canals gallery    canals in Peru
    Caral, Peru containment canal     Paria, Oruro containment canals    canal to sea (lago UruUru
    America's lost civilisation     flooding dates on the Altiplano    Atlantis stones gallery    Suka Kollus    Suka Kollus espanol

   Atlantis stade     cubits between altiplano canals     Nazca measurements and underground channels     Cholula Pyramid
   Tiwanaku cubits     Teotihuacan measuring unit     Teotihuacan citadel measuring units     Decoding the quipu mathematics and yupana     Yupana
   Chichen Itza and El Castillo measuring units     Monte Alban, measuring units     Peru cubits and calendar    codo Tiwanaku (en espanol)

   agricultural variations on the Altiplano    geoforms = landforms oblique views    geoglyph fossilised agriculture
   hillforts    ringed hilltops    contour forms/irrigation Peru    contourforms/irigation Bolivia
   earthquakes     Bombo earthquake route     Bombo route oblique views     Pyramid Mountain     Inca Pukara

   Luis Gutierrez, tour guide     Porfirio Limachi, reed boat builder     building abora III history     reed boat construction history
   Pampa Aullagas     Pampa Aullagas oblique views     Santuario de Quillacas     Pumiri     Sajama     Oruro
   tsunami     fossilised footprint discovery Bolivia     the Atlantis Trail     tunupa photo gallery     building the model

   Full Paper part I submitted to Atlantis Conference Athens 2008 PDF
   Full Paper part II submitted to Atlantis Conference Athens 2008 PDF
   Full Paper part III submitted to Atlantis Conference Athens 2008 PDF

   Milos conference 24 points    beyond the Milos 24 points    statements comparison 50 points

   LAMA expedition    Pampa Aullagas virtual museum    Eternal City lago Wiñaymarca    Ciudad eterna lago Wiñaymarca    Tomb of the Incas

   atlantisbolivia.org bookstore    Atlantis maps    Atlantis Theories     Atlantis Places

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Atlantis translations
1 Taylor, details unknown
2 Donnelly, Ignatius Atlantis: The ante-diluvian world (1882 reprinted 1949) Sampson, Low, Marston & Co., Ltd. London and Edinburgh
3 Jowett, Benjamin Plato's Timaeus 1893
4 Bury, R. G., Plato IX Timaeus, Critias etc., Harvard University Press, 1929
5 Lee, Desmond, Plato Timaeus and Critias, Penguin Books, 1965
11 Homer The Iliad Penguin Classics 1950
12 Homer The Odyssey Penguin Classics 1946
13 More, Thomas, Utopia Penguin Classics 1961
14 Dilke, Christopher, Letter to a King, George Allen & Unwin, based upon El primer nueva corónica y buen gobierno by Guaman Poma (1615)
     edited and published in English by Christopher Dilke as, Letter to a King: A Peruvian Chief's Account of Life under the Incas and under Spanish Rule     (New York: E.P. Dutton, 1978).
15 Graves, Robert, The Greek Myths, Penguin, 1955
16 Berriman, A. E., Historical Metrology, J. M. Dent & Sons Ltd, 1953

17 Klein, Herbert S., Bolivia, Oxford University Press, 1992
18 Thom, A., Megalithic Sites in Britain, Clarendon Press, 1967
19 Aveni, Anthony, Empires of Time, I. B. Taurus & Co. Ltd, 1990
20 Blavatsky, H. P., Isis Unveiled, Theosophical Publishing House, 1877
21 Fasold, David, The Discovery of Noah's Ark, David Fasold, Sidgwick & Jackson, 1990
22 Heyerdahl, Thor, The Tigris Expedition, Doubleday & Co., 1982
23 Bacon, Francis, The New Atlantis, Cambridge University Press, 1900 (Original edition 1627)
24 Hemming, John, The Conquest of the Incas, Abacus, 1970
25 Bingham, Hiram, Lost City of the Incas Atheneum N.Y. 1970
26 Botting Douglas Humboldt and the Cosmos, Michael Joseph 1973, Sphere Books 1973
27 Gómara, Franciso López de La Historia de las Indias, Zaragoza. 1552
28 Gamboa, Pedro Sarmiento de (1572) Historia de los Incas, Peru, see next entry
29 Markham, Sir Clements, History of the Incas, translated, edited and published in English from Gamboa, Pedro Sarmiento de (1572) Historia de los Incas The Hakluyt Society, Cambridge University Press, 1907
30 Zarate, Agustín, Historia del descubrimiento y conquista del Perú (1556) published in English as The Discovery and History of Peru trans by J.M. Cohen Pub Penguin Classics 1968
31 Sugiyama, Saburo, Human Sacrifice, Militarism and Rulership USA, Barnes & Noble, 2005

A remarkable book Letter to a King ^[14] a petition by one of the few remaining Inca noblemen Huaman Poma (1567-1615) to the King of Spain records the details of the Andes before its destruction at the hands of the Conquest ...
"In every village in this country there are watercourses, constructed in ancient times, into which the water is diverted from rivers, lakes or ponds. So much labour was involved that the cost . . . These works date back to the time before the Incas, when there was a large population under a single king. Not only watercourses were constructed but also terraces for the planting of crops on the hillsides. These were built up laboriously by hand, without tools, by Indians who each placed a single stone at a time to make long heaps. The number of workers was so vast that these projects were rapidly completed. Thus the terrain was made to bear cereals to feed the people, even in the sandy coastal plains and the rugged scenery of the Andes. Bridges and aqueducts were built and the marshes drained by order of these early kings. Then came the Incas, who ordained that existing custom and law should be preserved. There was to be no interference with the irrigation of the orchards and pastures which reached as far as the mountain peaks and gorges. They knew that these works, constructed by so great a labour force, could never in all probability be repeated."

"The Indians multiplied like ants or like the sands of the sea until they could no longer find room to live. Then they populated the lower levels of the land, where the climate was temperate and warm. The population was so numerous ..."

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