Why things never get published

Jim Allen, author Atlantis: the Andes Solution
Atlantis: Lost Kingdom of the Andes

These days it is difficult to get a book published because of the simple fact that the vast majority of books are commissioned in advance by publishers and a typical agent may get, say 50 unsolicited proposals for publication per day. Add to that the fact that all the old small publishing companies have been bought up by large conglomerates and you can see why it is difficult for anyone who is not already in the business to get published these days.

But when it comes to Atlantis in Bolivia there seems to be another reason. It would seem that all those classicists and historians absolutely hate the idea that Atlantis could be in Bolivia, or anywhere else for that matter.

The situation is not helped by the fact that so many differnt locations have been put forward as the site of Atlantis, but as they say in "Highlander", "There can be only one."

And because Plato left a very long and detailed description of what Atlantis actually looked like, it is a simple process to eliminate most of the sites which do not correspond in any detail to his actual description.

But that's not what they do. They have decided instead that sites which don't match Atlantis can be considered, because that does not damage their own statements that Atlantis was purely fable, but an actual site that matches Atlantis should be dismissed and ignored because it is easier to say that Atlantis never existed, was only a fable, and that any potential evidence should not be examined. To give you a quote, when sending a portfolio of Atlantis in Bolivia evidence to the head of a Cambridge college who was also a leading archaeologist, the material was returned unexamined with the note "Atlantis is a subject in which I have never been interested."

Or there again, at an earlier time another leading Cambridge archeologist was famous for calling Atlantis or anything else he didn't like, "the lunatic finge of archaeology." They say that helped block several careers.

So it is left to us non-scientists to pursue what we perceive to be the scientific method, which is actually rejected by the actual scientists, that is, to take Plato's description and see if it applies to a real place. In this case, the level, rectangular plain called the Altiplano, in Bolivia, adjacent to the inland sea called Lake Poopo, with its island of concentric rings called Pampa Aullagas, destroyed by naural phenomena called earthquakes and floods, just like Plato said ...

And for us non-scientists, it hardly makes sense to discard a theory in advance because you are not prepared to look at the evidence, then to prevent others from publishing the evidence so they can examine it themselves, but that it seems is the scientific method adopted by those editing Wikipedia according to a conversation I have just found on the Internet, and although I am a fan of Wikipedia and find it a useful reference tool, when dealing with a subject like Atlantis which is of great interest to so many people, it seems somewhat prejudiced to block the publication of a theory because it does not fit in with what a few experts who have not examined the evidence have already decided ...

Follow their link Revision as of 04:36, 22 February 2009 and you will see they have mentioned practically every other theory EXCEPT Bolivia ...

the reference and text is pasted in below ...

Quote From   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki?title=Talk:Atlantis

Quote...
"Is this chart comparing the locations valid for inclusion? Can we stick it in somehow?"

Atlantis locations comparison chart

http://www.atlantisbolivia.org/atlantisboliviapart4_files/milos990.jpg

Quote continued...
"My edit got reverted. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Atlantis&diff=272420546&oldid=272420249 I Googled for that conference, and didn't find any major news sources talking about it. Still, you had a group of people, professional and published archeologist and whatnot, one of which had a documentary I saw about Bolivia being Atlantis(having a documentary made about your work makes you notable by wikipedia I think), who agreed upon this. There are references from the various translated versions of Plato, every indication of anything that could be used to find the exact spot he was talking about. http://www.atlantisbolivia.org/atlantisboliviapart4_files/milos990.jpg

If I contacted them, and they agreed to let their chart be used, would that be valid here or on the Location hypotheses of Atlantis article? When you look at the chart, it seems odd that other locations are listed, and not Bolivia. All the other evidence seems rather convincing as well. Dream Focus 03:22, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Please don't. Any theory that Atlantis is located in Bolivia is a non-starter. Maybe you can stick it in Location hypotheses of Atlantis--but it's too far out there for the main article. Please realize that there are many "discoveries" of Atlantis every year, and none of them ever pan out. That's because people are looking for the wrong thing--Plato's Atlantis is a fiction. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:37, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

The evidence looks rather convincing to me. And they once said another Greek story was false, there no city of Troy, everyone dismissing it as nonsense, until someone went there and found it. Everyone should keep an open mind, but also look over notable facts you can confirm or disprove. Dream Focus 17:55, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Because of the nature of the subject, we are using fringier sources than we normally would, but this one deserves no more then a mention, certainly not this chart. No way is Jim Allen a reliable source, or this location notable enough. dougweller (talk) 06:41, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, there we go, in the 19th century the argument wasn't whether there was a real city of Troy, but where it was located. Schliemann thought he knew where it was but was persuaded by others to dig in a different spot, where he may have found it (we still lack the archaeological evidence to be sure that Homer was describing a real war). So that's a bad example. And it doesn't matter if you find it convincing and someone else doesn't, what we need are reliable sources. Jim Allen isn't one. dougweller (talk) 18:45, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

But isn't Plato? You can't just say something doesn't exists, because it hasn't been found yet. There is no reason to doubt this ancient writer, who wrote specific measurements of things, and gave far more detail to it than he would if it was just a story meant to entertain or teach a moral lesson to people. I believe Plato is notable, and the archeological evidence, the quarried stones, and the satellite images of that area, as well as the ancient measurements, and descriptions, and the gold copper alloy he mentions, among other things, do make Atlantis seem quite real, and Bolivia the most likely place for it to be at. Dream Focus 19:01, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter what we think; what matters is what reliable sources think. Jim Allen isn't one; scholars like Julia Annas, Pierre Vidal-Naquet, and John Luce are. These are classicists, the kinds of people we turn to when we need expert opinions on ancient Greek philosophy, history, and literature. Annas and Vidal-Naquet think that Plato's Atlantis is pure fiction, whereas John Luce thinks that Plato's Atlantis might depend on stories of the Thera eruption. But I don't think you'll find any classicist thinks that Plato was writing about Bolivia... --Akhilleus (talk) 19:06, 23 February 2009 (UTC)"

End of quote ...

So Atlantis as the Altiplano region of Bolivia got reduced to a very small paragraph on the Wikipedia Location hypothesis page.

Atlantis Wikipedia Bolivia
above, the small paragraph allocated to Atlantis Bolivia on Wikipedia.

Atlantis Wikipedia Bolivia
above, on the evening of 14th January 2011, I added the additional information as above.

Atlantis Wikipedia Bolivia
above, by next morning the additional information had been removed and reverted to the small paragraph.

Atlantis Wikipedia Bolivia
above, on the 18th January 2011, I resubmitted the information but this time including references to entries on Wikipedia's own webpages as well as extra references to the books mentioned in brackets.

Atlantis Wikipedia Bolivia
above, in addition to references to pages already on Wipidia, I provided additional references

Atlantis Wikipedia Bolivia
above, by next morning all the information had bee deleted and reverted back to the original five lines entry.

One of the excuses given for deletion was that it was "original research" and "promoting Jim Allen" but that did not seem to stop them promoting a variety of other sites which were given extensive paragraphs on the same page when they similarly were "original research", similarly promoting their proposers and with no evidence or correspondence at all to Plato's actual description.

click here for a comparison of the rectangular plain and different locations



Here's another one.
They do hate any idea that there might have been an ancient canal system on the Altiplano.
Check this out, an interview between Carl Zimmer and a geologist from Oxford University
This is what he has to say about canals on the Altiplano ...

Making the Rocks Talk
Published: July 25, 2004
DEVIL IN THE MOUNTAIN
A Search for the Origin of the Andes by Simon Lamb.

"SIMON LAMB, a geologist at Oxford University, got a call one day from a television producer about pictures of Atlantis. The lost civilization could be found on 12,000-foot high plains nestled in the Andes Mountains. An Atlantis expert (whatever that is) had shown the producer satellite photographs of the plains, pointing out canals running in parallel straight lines for miles. What more proof could one ask for? The producer called Lamb, an expert on the Andes, for confirmation. Lamb pulled out his own satellite photographs, found the canals, and laughed. He told the producer that canals had formed naturally, without any help from Atlanteans. Hundreds of millions of years ago, before the Andes existed, rocks had slowly piled up in layers. Later the rocks were heaved onto their side and raised up thousands of feet, whereupon rain began to flow down their exposed flanks. The water gnawed away at the weakest layers, creating a series of straight-edged channels. As he spoke, Lamb could sense hostility on the other end of the line. The producer didn't want to hear about strata and erosion. ''Well, that's your explanation, anyway,'' he huffed, and went off to make his documentary without Lamb's help. ''Atlantis in the Andes'' later appeared on the Learning Channel. This story has a silver lining. The conversation inspired Lamb to demonstrate just how fascinating the Atlantis-free Andes are. The result is ''Devil in the Mountain,'' an absorbing account of the many years Lamb has spent exploring and pondering the Andes. But the book is not simply about a particular place or one scientific career. Lamb gives his readers a wonderful feel for how geology works -- how geologists gather clues, test hypotheses and ultimately come to understand the workings of the world. .. Lamb set out to find the answer. Since 1989 he and his coworkers have driven 100,000 miles inspecting the mountains, mostly in Bolivia, home to the highest peaks (and those canal-scarred plains). In ''Devil in the Mountain,'' he describes some of these trips and his research. On some expeditions he simply made sketches in notebooks. On others he stood waist-deep in rivers, drilling out cylinders of rock with a diamond-tipped corer. Sometimes he scrambled up volcanoes to capture gas that had risen hundreds of miles from below the earth's crust. ''Devil in the Mountain'' isn't perfect, but it succeeds in its main mission, to make us so familiar with the history of the Andes that they become living things. At the very least, everyone who watched ''Atlantis in the Andes'' should have to buy one." end of quote.

Now thanks to Google, the public can check out high resolution satellite images for themselves and decide whether canals exist on the Altiplano, or whether they are as the experts claim, causd by "natural erosion".


above, high resolution satellite images from Google Earth show canals on the Altiplano and the the remains of a vast agricultural system which continued right up to the time of the Spanish Conquest. Click for gallery



Atlantis by lake Poopo Bolivia
above, location of the Atlantis site with concentric rings of land by Lake Poopo, Bolivia, "50 stades from the sea."


atlantisbolivia.org